053 Raise or Rise

I am a bit puzzled about the different ways we can continue the phrase which starts with "I would appreciate if..." :

1) I would appreciate if you sent me a refund.

2) I would appreciate if you would send me a refund.

3) I would appreciate if you send me a refund.

As far as I can understand, the first and the second variants are grammatically absolutely correct, the second variand ("would send") implying the willingness on the part of "you". Is it right?

The third variant ("send") is incorrect, in my humble opinion. Because "I would appreciate" is an unreal conditional, and "if you send me" is real conditional. Their combination seems illogical. Or is it acceptable?

The search in the google gives examples of all types, but native English speakers can also make mistakes.

So, I am interested whether the third variant ("I would appreciate if you send me a refund.") is:

a) grammatically and stylistically correct;

b) a grammar mistake;

c) bad style.

Thank you in advance!

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18th April 2009, 4:41 PM#2

johndot

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The verb appreciate (in this sense) is transitive so it should be followed by a noun or pronoun.

1) I would appreciate it if you sent me a refund. (Straightforward conditional)

2) I would appreciate if you would send me a refund. (Not correct, but often said [ with it, as above]. It should be the same as 1.)

3) I would appreciate if you send me a refund.(This should be: I will appreciate it if you send me a refund. Straightforward conditional.)

Another way would be: I would appreciate your sending me a refund. (“your sending me a refund” is the direct object as a phrase.)

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18th April 2009, 5:22 PM#3

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In these sentences I always feel the dummy it (which I agree is necessary) is very obtrusive.

To avoid the obtrusive it, I prefer either johndot's version with the gerund or changing to "I would be grateful if ..."

However, it is clear that many do not object to it in this structure.

In another thread* it was suggested (probably by me) that johndot's corrected version of (3) is a bit presumptuous - in a way, taking for granted that you are going to send the refund.

Of (1) and (2), I think I understand johndot's objection to (2), but it seems to me to be the "normal" form. It's what I would say and it appears to be used by lots of others.

"I would appreciate it if you would send" - 6,230

"I would appreciate it if you sent" - 682

"I would be grateful if you would send" - 2,680

"I would be grateful if you sent" - 399

The counts are unreliable in absolute terms, but they probably give an indication of relative frequency of use.

I'd better include the versions without it:

"I would appreciate if you would send" - 10,900

"I would appreciate if you sent" - 515

Oh.

<<...>>

Last edited by panjandrum; 28th October 2011 at 6:16 PM. Reason: Merged.

It takes two to tangle.

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18th April 2009, 6:51 PM#4

johndot

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Ah, yes. In my earlier post I restricted myself to conditional tense usage; but there are other constructions of course, as in “Please send me a refund—I would appreciate it.” (And, surely, in this case the ‘it’ can’t be avoided?)

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20th April 2009, 9:00 PM#5

guelder rose

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Thank you for the explanations and corrections!

As I take it, the corrected version of "3) I would appreciate it if you send me a refund." should be :

"I would appreciate it if you sent me a refund.",

taking into consideration that "I will appreciate it if you send me a refund" is a bit presumptuous, as panjandrum mentioned.

Raise or Rise?

The verbs raise and rise both refer to something going "up". The main difference between them is that raise is transitive (it must have a direct object) and rise is intransitive (no direct object).

Something raises something.

Something rises.

We also note that:

raise is regular: raise, raised, raised

rise is irregular: rise, rose, risen

Raise (regular, transitive)

If you raise something, it means that you elevate it - you move it up or lift it to a higher level.

The government plans to raise the age of retirement from 65 to 67.

If you have a question, please raise your hand.

Mary raises her voice when she's angry.

He raised his eyebrows, as if surprised.

They have raised their prices every year since they were founded.

The king's men were raising the drawbridge when it collapsed.

On this page we discuss the meanings of raise and rise that mainly cause confusion. Both of these verbs have additional meanings that we do not discuss here.

Rise (irregular, intransitive)

If something rises, it means that it elevates itself - it goes up itself. No external force is needed to lift it. But note that there is not always a physical movement; sometimes the meaning is just "to increase".

I like to rise at 6am, but my husband stays in bed until 8am.

If it doesn't stop raining, the river will rise and overflow.

Hot air rises.

John rose from his chair when Mary walked in.

Jane has risen in her company very quickly and is now CEO.

Prices are rising all the time.

To help you compare the meanings, here are some examples with raiseand rise in the same sentence:

We raise the flag when the sun rises, and we lower it when the sun goes down.

Whenever our commanding officer comes in, we rise from our chairs and raise our hands in salute.

The helicopter rose into the air, raising the survivors out of the water.

Important! There is some confusion over the nouns rise and raise when talking about pay or salary. In British English a (pay) rise is an increase in pay. In American English the word is (pay) raise.

Did you get a 4% pay rise last year? (BrE)

My boss said he's giving me a pay raise next month. (AmE)

no/ � m r p O ОO 0px 10px; padding: 0px; position: relative; width: 1234px;">On this page we discuss the meanings of raise and rise that mainly cause confusion. Both of these verbs have additional meanings that we do not discuss here.

Rise (irregular, intransitive)

If something rises, it means that it elevates itself - it goes up itself. No external force is needed to lift it. But note that there is not always a physical movement; sometimes the meaning is just "to increase".

I like to rise at 6am, but my husband stays in bed until 8am.

If it doesn't stop raining, the river will rise and overflow.

Hot air rises.

John rose from his chair when Mary walked in.

Jane has risen in her company very quickly and is now CEO.

Prices are rising all the time.

To help you compare the meanings, here are some examples with raiseand rise in the same sentence:

We raise the flag when the sun rises, and we lower it when the sun goes down.

Whenever our commanding officer comes in, we rise from our chairs and raise our hands in salute.

The helicopter rose into the air, raising the survivors out of the water.

Important! There is some confusion over the nouns rise and raise when talking about pay or salary. In British English a (pay) rise is an increase in pay. In American English the word is (pay) raise.

Did you get a 4% pay rise last year? (BrE)

My boss said he's giving me a pay raise next month. (AmE)